The sound of drums from the Kettle Moraine.
THE FIRES in Austin were still burning yesterday when the Internet lit up with government haters cheering suicide pilot Joe Stack and calling him a hero."Finally an American man took a stand against our tyrannical government that no longer follows the Constitution," wrote Emily Walters of Louisville, Ky.
"Finally an American man took a stand against our tyrannical government that no longer follows the Constitution," wrote Emily Walters of Louisville, Ky.
I can't believe how bigoted these people are to use this situation as a way to further their campaign. It is time to evaluate out moral standards when we begin to hail a person for performing such treason as this. If that plane was hijaacked by a darker skinned man of a different religion, then these groups would be singing a different tune right now.
Even the NY Daily News can't spell kamikaze? Geeze Louise, Idiocracy is here.Label me intellectual elite for just sayin'.
Holy shit, really:"One founder of a Stack fan club on Facebook, Rick Wagner, is a pilot in Minnesota. His "about me" quote, which one hopes is a joke, reads:"When I go I want to be able to look back and tell all the passengers to quit screaming."I really wish these folks wouldn't push their Tea Party Religion on the rest of us.
I hate to say it, but I agree with you ... it'd be used to justify an even greater clamping down on our personal liberties, ala the Patriot Act, and as justification to invade yet another Middle Eastern country -- assuming there's one we haven't invaded yet.
Mark,Angry white guys, upset about their tax slavery, generally will not take it to this level.However, radical Islamists are out there saying they would do things like this again and again.Do you see anyone defending this guy?That's the difference in the "terrorist" label. Christianity does not condone such actions. Radical Islam does.
Radical Christianity does too Kev. The problem isn't the Christian or the Moslem, it's the radical Christian or Moslem.Like you, say.
Any "Christian" defending this guy...I would question their Christianity.Christianity is not out there calling for acts of terrorism to win salvation. And almost all Christians would denounce such nonsense.However, radical Islam does call for the killing of non-Muslims to win salvation and moderate Muslim groups are awefully quiet on the subject.That's the difference.
Kevin, haven't you been reading Ginny's blog?
"However, radical Islam does call for the killing of non-Muslims to win salvation and moderate Muslim groups are awefully quiet on the subject."Right. Radical Muslims are for the killing of non-Muslims, just like Radical Christians advocate killing abortion doctors. I'm actually kind of surprised you don't understand that Kevin.This whole "moderate Muslim groups are awfully quiet on the subject" statement baffles me. How many Muslims do you know? I know a few, and they think radical Muslims are fucking bonkers. What exactly do you expect, daily full page ads in the NY Times by moderate Muslims denouncing the radicals? If you say yes, then where are the full page ads taken out by the Catholic church denouncing abortion doctor killers?
You should read his manifesto, Mark.He hates Christians, he hates capitalism, he hates the tax system, he really hates George W. Bush, and he loves communism.Sounds a lot like you, Mark.http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/02/18/2010-02-18_austin_plane_crash_full_text_joe_stack_manifesto_posted_on_website_embeddedartco.html
Dan,I agree moderate Muslims think that, but, my point was, moderate Muslims are too quiet about denouncing the radical crazies of their religion.The reason for that silence is: it's a very real fear that reprisal from radical Islam may make those that speak out a target.No one is worried about reprisal from the Pope or ELCA for criticism.That's the point, Dan.Mark,I'll bite. What is it you are referring to on Ginny's blog?
Right on all counts, except for the parts about hating Christianity and capitalism, or loving communism.I simply don't approve of fundamentalist Christians proselytizing using my tax dollar or the perpetuation of the free market fantasy in a way that disrupts social stability (I'd be perfectly happy if Friedman's proscriptions for capitalism could work... they just never have).And communism? Like under the Soviets? You're "gathering unripe fruit," as the Greeks used to say. Having lived in a former Soviet Republic I think it's likely I might be the only one in here who has actually seen the psychological damage caused by the Soviets.Were you a big fan of the Nazis getting the trains to run on time, James? Or just of oligarchies in general?
"moderate Muslims are too quiet about denouncing the radical crazies of their religion."I guess I go back to my question then... what do you expect them to do? What do you expect I do when radical Christians kill doctors? What can I do?
"Having lived in a former Soviet Republic I think it's likely I might be the only one in here who has actually seen the psychological damage caused by the Soviets."I lived in the former East Germany for a bit just after reunification. Holy shit what a fucked-up backwards mess!
Seriously. I don't think people in the States really understand just how bad it was. Even our most pointed propaganda about the USSR barely scratched the surface. [We were in Lativa in '98 for a year -- and Stalin hated the Latvians.]
I also was in Moscow and St. Petersburg in 1992, but that was with a tour group and even tho it was after the fall of the commies, we still had a state guide with us who made sure we only saw what they wanted us to see. I'll never forget seeing people trim the medians in the roads in Moscow with sickles.I was in East Germany in 1993 and lived with a family in Rostock. I can't even describe how just simply depressing everything was. The people, the landscape, the food... everything. In 1993 you could go to East Berlin and still see facades of buildings with blast marks and bullet marks from WWII. What does that tell you?
As someone who could see the smoke from Joe Stack's plane crash when I went to lunch that day, I have no problem at all calling him a terrorist. He deliberately tried to murder innocent people in order to advance his (admittedly crazy) agenda.And Kev--tax slavery? Really? Do you mean the slavery that forced him to live in a quarter-million dollar home and own his own airplane?Thank God this lunatic rammed his plane into unleased office space instead of the parts of the building that were actually occupied by his intended victims.
I was trying to point out the guy is a nut job. Not a Teapartier. And the ones who think he is a hero need some serious counseling. I should have used the word disdain instead of hate. I was trying to be funny Mark, sorry if I offended. Of course you don't hate the Christians. I understand your position and I actually agree. I'm glad you've seen the damage the communist Soviets did to their people. I just don't understand why you push for some of the same fiscal policies here in America. I just think that the media was quick to rush to judgment and label this nut as being on the right politically, when he's really just a nut. Calling me a Nazi lover though? I don't get it.
Of course James, sorry about that. It's interesting that it's getting harder to tell when we're all yolking.I'm a bit surprised to hear that I would endorse Soviet style economic policies -- maybe *I* was yolking and not clear enough about it -- unless it was spending lots of money on education to produce as many engineers and scientists as possible. I think they got that right. Oh, and state sponsorship of some arts.But we have much of that now.Frankly, I tend to fall back on the Teddy Roosevelt bumpersticker with regards to the role of government in the economy: the government needs only intrude enough to protect the littlest guy from the biggest corporation. If companies could be trusted to actually follow the free-market notions of no coercion and no fraud, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me -- but they don't and I don't see any reason to expect them to. It's not their job to be moral agents, it's their job to make money. It's the job of government, in that case, to act as referee.Our current problem is that Big Business has bought off the ref.I've just been following up on the Koch family's funding programs over the last 50 years -- fascinating reading.
James, he may not have officially been part of the whole tea party thing, but at least this official looking tea party group call him a hero. Plug in the URL and look on their site for yourself.http://twitter.com/TPPatriots/statuses/9351363311
Dan- This person needs to be shouted down, as he is a nut job too. I would guess he has no real connection to the movement. (if he does, he will be quickly removed). If I put an official looking Republican logo on my twitter account and start yelling stupid things is it the Republican Parties responsibility? This is the internet, people can claim or post anything with little or no consequences. If Sarah Palin or any other politician had said this, it would ruin them. Every new political group has a minority fringe, just look at the Green party.The leadership needs to deal with these fringes or the whole party will fall apart just like the Ross Perot/Jesse Ventura party did. I kinda think this will happen anyways because as much as we as Americans like to bitch about our "two party" political system, it's still the best one going.
James,I guess you were too lazy to plug in the URL on the Twitter page. Had you done it you would have landed here:http://www.teapartypatriots.org/The site belongs to a "them", not a "he" or a "person". It's more than just a logo.
Dan,I plugged it in and read it and I really don't like what it said. But F.Y.I. the tweet came from a public message board on the main site that automatically re-tweets posts live feed style. It says right on the page that these opinions are not of the tea party patriots or whatever they call themselves. (Bad idea to re-tweet everything, for sure.) So it was one person's opinion. But hey, Thanks for the lazy insult. That's real mature.
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