Sunday, November 08, 2009

Sensenbrenner senseless again on health care.

Hi everyone,

Right, Rep. Sensenbrenner spilled milk and then cried about it in the Daily News on Saturday under the headline: "Americans give a thumbs down on health care."

-- except, they don't. Recent Gallup numbers suggest otherwise: despite what the guy in Elm Grove holding up the cardboard TeaBagger sign said, most Americans are giving Congress a big thumbs up on health care and Rep. Sensenbrenner ... well, they're using a different finger entirely.

Now, it is true that most Americans want to take time to do this properly, but Rep. Sensenbrenner's mere ditto-heading the Rush/Beck/Fox/Insurance company talking points that the government is going to take away medical decisions from your doctor -- something the insurance companies have *now* -- is a clear indicator of who is buttering the Representative's toast.



kevin scheunemann said...

That Gallup poll does not ask the right question.

This is the right question:

"Is it your responsibility to help pay for the government health care plan by an 8% (or more) payroll tax?"

That will get less than 40%.

People will always say its the government's responsibility until it comes to asking them to pay for it!

Why is the "how are we going to pay for it?" question never asked? Liberals pound the "how are we going to pay for it?" until nausea when it comes to tax cuts.

RIch Kasten said...

Mark, I put a lot more trust in the Rasmussen poll ( showing quite a different picture than Gallup. Not to mention, even Gallup is starting to trend downward for support. I think you may have your rose colored glasses on for this one and Sensenbrenner more likely is right than senseless.

Mpeterson said...

I notice they asked different questions, so the results are a bit harder to compare, but I guess we'll find out.

Mpeterson said...

Kevin, you always couch this in the context of whether the government has any responsibilities... I think you frame your questions that way to avoid the more dangerous and personal question about whether *you* have any civic responsibilities beyond selling ice cream and making money. I suspect you don't believe you do
-- although I confess I'm hard pressed to see anything civic about selling ice cream or making money.

Brian said...

I'd have to side with Kevin and Rich on this one.

The majority of people will accept something for free. For example, health care, cash for clunkers, tuition credits.

If you walked up to a college student and offered them free tuition, free healthcare, and $4,500 for their old car, chances are they will take it.

What people don't take into consideration are the implications of providing everything for free: higher taxes. **100% of what the government provides for its citizens must come from the citizens**

Now, I am a college student that is struggling to pay the bills... so I work at a small business near the university I attend. Under the national healthcare plan, the owner of the business I work at will be paying higher taxes... in an already struggling economy and in a highly competitive market. I have no doubt that hours will be cut and pay will either be cut or raises will be pushed back.

So sure, give me the free handouts because I'm going to need them after my paychecks begin getting smaller and smaller because my employer must pay higher taxes.

All this is doing is creating another dependency on the government... something we have too much of already and something that is very difficult to reverse.

As citizens begin to receive health care from the government, the government will need to take in more money. The benefit that we receive from any health care bill will be offset by the taxes we pay.

The long-term implications of this bill is decreased employment. Decreased employment results in less payroll taxes being collected. Less payroll taxes being collected will result in a deficit. Obama's mission seems to be to increase the deficit as much as possible in the shortest amount of time. The only other way to combat a growing deficit is... HIGH TAXES. It's a cycle... and not a good one.

Universal healthcare is MUCH easier said than done.

kevin scheunemann said...


I guess the $2000 yearly UWWC scholarship I helped establish while president of the Kewaskum Kiwanis Foundation doesn't count as "civic responsibility"? (Even the former Dean would vouch for my efforts on this one.)

I do chuckle that my "civic responsibility" is being called into question.

My "civic efforts" inlcude helping build parks, helping to build structures in those parks, volunteer efforts to raise $ for educational awards year in and year out, I've personally raised over $100,000 for Milwaukee Children's Hospital, I could go on, but I don't use my civic efforts as a bragging mechanism, only as proof my civic efforts do exist.

I choose my civic responsibilities because I want to do them. I refuse to have my civic responsibilities chosen and defined for me by idiotic eggheads in Washington.

Did you know the health insurance reform you are so fond of, passed by the house over the weekend, allows the IRS to fine people thousands of $'s if they DO NOT PROVIDE PROOF, ON THEIR TAX RETURN, OF A "GOVERNMENT QUALIFIED" HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN!

What is "government qualified"?

The bill says some egghead in Washington will determine that, 18 months from now! (Actually 111 new government agencies and boards, according to the house bill.)

This is the most insane power grab from citizens ever. I can't believe you support giving all our health care choice to this "plan"!

Is this health care bill the "civic responsibility" you talk about? This is how Stalinist Russia practiced "civil responsibility".

PaulyW said...


Paying for social programs always has to come from somebodys hide.

What ever poll you quote from is going to have responses from those that will get something for nothing. They embrace the free ride and know that you will endorse a government that can continue to take what I have worked hard for.

Mpeterson said...

It doesn't come out of their hide, it comes out of their fair contribution to the general welfare.

But besides, why would I support anyone getting a "free" ride at my own expense? It is neither free nor a ride.

kevin scheunemann said...


There's that phrase, "fair contribution".

Determined by whom?

The public mob?

The bureaucrats in Washington and Madison not smart enough to cut it in the private sector?

How many hours of my labor being disposed of by you in the name of "fairness" is enough for the choking welfare state?

20 hours/week? 30 hours? 40? 50? 60?

Will I have to eventually cut out sleep for my "fair contribution"?

It looks like being a welfare mom has more incentive than achievment (Welfare moms get child care at $200/week, free health insurance through Badgercare, food stamps over $500/month, depending on kids, $800/year in electricity asistence, free school lunches, free school breakfasts, special tax credits, WIC payments, welfare payments, and even cell phones!)...I'm thinking about a change in profession.

Being a victim seems to be more lucrative than being a leader and achiever.

As a victim, I know Mark will fight for my interests.

As an achiever, I'm vilified, taxed, regulated, and a forced slave to the welfare state. And Mark will not fight for me because I made better life choices.

Hmmm...irresponsibility it is!

Mpeterson said...

Kevin, if you knew the average salary of a PhD in philosophy who has to work in business you'd blush. Most of the people who you think can't make it in the "real world" would crush you like a bug in business if they put their minds to it. Now, not all of them, surely, but a lot... so drop the stereotyping that simply enables your own victimhood.

Did you honestly mean "Being a victim seems to be more lucrative than being a leader and achiever"?? And you were able to type that without choking?

Unless, of course, you meant that the execs at Goldman Sachs, now sunning themselves in Bermuda on my dime are victims. I suppose they are: victims of their own success.

How many victimized welfare mothers in Washington County could we pay for with the victimized executives as Goldman Sachs? I'll bet it's a lot.

Kevin, who on earth do you believe is determining what "FAIR" is now?

We don't have to go to a mob to work it out either... I'd even be content to let the market decide -- but a free market, not what we've had for the past 30 years.

But the rest of this is just nonsense. Stop it. Have you simply stopped following Rand's rules for arguing? Or have you adopted the Clintonesque "it all depends on what you mean by A=A"? :^)

I had no idea you like Bill enough to adopt his rhetorical techniques.

Mpeterson said...

Oh, sorry about that Kevin.

I did not mean to call your civic actions into question by any means. It's a damned fine thing. I've just been operating under the assumption that you're politics are still being influenced by Ayn Rand -- as they were so heavily earlier in your life. Most people don't get over that kind of libertarianism.

So I'd never meant to question the value of your civic contributions -- those, I applaud happily.

I'd merely meant to note that they're at odds with what I'd taken to be your Randian libertarianism.

If you're no longer under the sway of the imposing Ms. Rand, I apologize.

kevin scheunemann said...

So what are you saying?

Its never in anyone's "self interest" to raise money to build parks, help sick children, and money for education for others?

Isn't that a rather dim view of humanity? Do you need a "spiritual pep talk"?

You are correct, I am not "choked" by Randian idealism, however, Rand still does have some really great phrases to describe the oppressive slavery and economic destruction of government statism. So there is no need to kick Rand to the curb in describing the systematic nonsense of bad government programs.

Did you see the Fox news story that 9.6% of every Medicare $ is wasted?

$47 billion in one year! Wasted!

Ford only made $1 billion in profit last year. Its not "evil" corporate profits we need to go after, its "evil" politicians not being good stewards of the resources they take from us that we need to hammer!

Is this the future of health care you advocate?

And this is only the waste in Medicare they caught!